Reasoning It Out—a Deliberation

A close friend of mine,  a Reform Jew  whom I mentioned in a previous post, ("An Argument Against Theistic Based Humanism") and I recently carried on a discussion via email regarding God (in which he believes), atheism, scripture, and the universe. The exchange was very worthwhile because it made us both reflect deeply about what we believe. In turn this enabled—no,make that required—us to present our best arguments about our respective positions on these issues.  Following is the dialogue from this email string. I have changed my friend's name to protect his privacy. 

I want to emphasize that such discussions don't have to be acrimonious and can be carried on in a spirit of fellowship especially when each side really listens to what the other has to say. As you will see,  our debate ended on a rather upbeat note.   The first entry below is from my friend, "Isaac".

Rick, 
Personal question(s). 

I know we have talked about it a lot over wine. But what were the psychological repercussions when you finally became an atheist? 

Isaac

 

Isaac,
For me the change from belief to atheism was rather gradual, so there wasn't much psych. impact along the way.  But when I completed my journey, I felt a sense of freedom and relief. Also certain matters became much simpler to deal with and address such as the issue of why bad things happen to good people (and vice versa) and whether things happen for a reason (they don't; they may have a cause, but not a reason--big difference). All this took a load off my mind.

Rick

Rick, 
What do you think of this: ("Theology: How Jews Picture God") 

Isaac

Isaac,

As an atheist, I find the described exercise  of picturing God meaningless (surprise). I was really amazed at those who felt that God is not all powerful  for not having prevented Auschwitz? How can God not be all powerful and still be God? Anyway this ties in with your question yesterday about the psychological impact of becoming an atheist. Not having to deal any longer with such philosophical gymnastics or alternatively copping out by shrugging those things off as "God's mysteries has taken a big load off my mind. 

Rick

Rick, 
Before the Big Bang there either was a God who created the universe -- or -- the universe created itself. I cannot comprehend an infinite regression. Which ever option is chosen, it's hard to argue that the Torah was written by God. For those who believe, according to the survey, God is felt most in nature. So if there is Creator, then he speaks most through his creation (nature). The laws of nature is the word of God? Shades of Spinoza.

Isaac

Isaac,

"Before the Big Bang there either was a God who created the universe -- or -- the universe created itself.". Well, the universe could be one of many multiverses, part of a multi dimensional  megaverse, or the last BB may not have been the first time. There could have been a cycle  of infinite of BB's  and then Big Crunches when the universe collapsed back in on itself. The latter may not be the best explanation because cosmologists no longer theorize that the universe will in fact recede inward as once thought.  They have discovered that the force of gravity for that scenario is not strong enough to offset the outward flight of stars and galaxies being repulsed from each other. since the BB. Over the next several billion years the stars will die out, and the universe will become a place of cold dead matter.

What would be God 's purpose in creating a universe that will one day be like that?  Also, if God created the universe at a discernible point in time, about 13 billion years ago, what was he doing before then? And why did he wait for that particular point in time to set off the Big Bang? What's so special about that instant that then and only then did he get the party started?  And of course, as for infinite regress, who created God, and who created that creator, etc?

The Torah is a composite work of several different authors who had very vivid imaginations. As I skim through it, I can't believe how mind boggling the stories are and how people still believe them  for anything but fables and myths that are no more true than the Greek myths.

Rick

Rick, 
That's why. I simply cannot comprehend an infinite regress. So instead of a first cause, there must have been an eternal cause.

Isaac 

Isaac,

But again, assuming God is that eternal cause, why did he wait until 13 billion years ago to create the universe, and one that along with all life will eventually  flicker out and die? 

Rick

Rick, 
Duh. I don't know. I'm just choosing what seems the least unreasonable to me. When confronted with the question of suffering, I've got 2 choices: to believe that there is a God but that I can't explain why there is suffering -- or -- since I can't explain, conclude that there is no God. As I said before, both are valid but mutually exclusive conclusions.

Isaac

Isaac,
Here's another angle from Stephen Hawking my query about God and the concept of time that I should have remembered. {"Atheists: If you believe the universe was created by the big bang, what do you think happened before it?"

Rick

Rick, 
I can only go to ideas that I can comprehend. I renounced the Christian Trinity because I couldn't comprehend how there could be 3 persons in One God. I also renounced the idea of a Mother of God, because if God has no beginning and no end, then he cannot have a mother. As for Stephen Hawking's ideas, he may be too intelligent for me to comprehend him. "Time did not exist before the Big Bang, so there was no time for God to make the universe in." I can't even begin to fathom that. 


Isaac

Isaac,
Don't sell yourself short. When it comes to intelligence, you're one of the smartest guys I know. I agree that physics and cosmology can be difficult to fathom sometimes., The theories of Hawkins et al are based on precise mathematical models, not guesswork. Since I was a kid I've loved astronomy /cosmology, and if it weren't for my deficient math abilities, I might well have gone into that field.

Rick

Rick, 
I can try to understand Hawking's idea below by guessing that space and time are related.

 
That's right. They're interconnected.

Since there was no space before the Big Bang, then there was no Time. 

Bingo! See? You've grasped it.

It was before Space and Time. But that's precisely what boggles my mind. A reality before Time and Space. 

Well if no space and time, then I'm guessing no reality either They were all born with the Big Bang. 

Maybe Greek mythology was on to something. In the beginning was Chaos. 

Isaac

Rick, 
Let's just drink a good bottle of wine. And celebrate your atheism and my belief in one God. And rock to the Chaos! 

Isaac

Isaac,

I'll drink to that.

Rick